Thursday, April 24, 2008

Hour Two: The followup discussion

Continuing the discussion...

Joan Schaan cites numbers, saying between 10 and 30% of crossers get caught, and 10% have a criminal record, though she thinks that might be low.

Charles Foster says "criminal records" will include a lot of minor infractions, and any large group will have some bad actors.

Curtis Collier stumps for the border fence and brings up terrorists. Gordon Quan reminds him that Homeland Security has found no cases of suspected terrorists crossing the Mexican border to enter the country.

A guest who neither Ree-C nor I can identify notes that it costs $5K to pay a coyote to be smuggled into the country.

Alberto Cardenas with Vinson & Elkins and Americans for Immigration Reform puts the blame on Congress for not creating a solution. "We can agree on border security, but what do we do after that?"

Orlando Sanchez reiterates the point that immigrants come from all over, not just Mexico, and agrees with Prof. Salinas about "vilifying" them; he also blames Congress.

Schaan: "The profits of human smuggling are approaching those of drug smuggling."

Angela Blanchard says we'll be insecure until we provide a path to legalization for the current undocumented immigrants.

Erika de la Garza reminds everyone that illegals pay into Social Security but won't be able to collect it.

Lots of statements of problems, but not much in the solutions department, which Patricia Gras is trying to get people to focus on.

Massey Villareal: "We have too much emotion on this issue. It doesn't do any good to yell at each other across the street, we need to sit down at the same table and talk to each other."

More speechifying, still no solutions.

Foster: We had no quotas on Latin American immigration until 1968. With a legal program, many immigrants who come here with their children would maintain ties back home and some would return.

Back to comprehensive immigration reform: What does it look like?

Back row commenter: DREAM Act is earned citizenship, it is not given.

Collier says "take amnesty off the table" and stumps for "earned citizenship".

Cardenas says we have 60,000 non-citizens serving in the military. "We need an ability to begin a registration process for the undocumented immigrants here in order to move forward."

Dan Patrick: "We have to remove the fear from all sides." Calls "amnesty" a buzzword, and says a small group of people in this room with 30 days to come up with a solution would be able to do so. I must say I agree with him. There may be hope yet. Ree-C is with me on this.

Blanchard: "Amnesty is about forgiveness. We've done it before, we'll need to do something like it again."

People who haven't spoken yet are being given the chance to comment. One of them notes that retiring baby boomers are going to need to be replaced in the workforce somehow.

I'm going to hit Publish now while I can.


Bulldog2_0 said...

MANY illegals don't care about any "path" to citizenship. All they want is to be LEFT ALONE. They want to live just like they did in Mexico... only WITH money.

But, everyone likes to say that illegals work hard. Why is that? Because they HAVE to. They STILL access SOME of the free goodies but they can't get as much as they'd like. make 'em citizens and watch what happens. They'll tail off from working. Why work when you can make ALMOST as much by NOT working?

Wilder said...

Has anybody figured out that you are breaking the law WHEN you cross the border ILLEGALLY? I have a neighbor that doesn't care for me that much and I can tell you what he would do if I was caught on his property. He would have me thrown in jail for trespassing. Well, what if I was fixing his fence? I think it wouldn't change the crime of me trespassing on his property.

Bulldog2_0 said...

I would be willing to bet that the proponents of illegal immigration would be INCENSED if someone were to take up residence in their home and then demand that they learn THEIR language and pay for their healthcare and other stuff. Heck, I bet they'd have a hissyfit is someone broke into a long line they were standing in. This is the same things that they propose that WE shouild accept. Well, what about all those people who paid the fees, did the legwork and stood in line to become Americans? What do you say to THEM? TOUGH? THOSE people wanted to become Americans and EARNED that right. They've PROVEN their love of this country. They weren't just handed anything nor did they take anything. Something that is stolen holds LITTLE value.

michilines said...

Dan Patrick: "We have to remove the fear from all sides." Calls "amnesty" a buzzword, and says a small group of people in this room with 30 days to come up with a solution would be able to do so. I must say I agree with him. There may be hope yet. Ree-C is with me on this.

I give Patrick props for that as well though wonder why he couldn't say it on television. He's pushed the fense as much as anyone.

bulldog, you cannot back up anything you have said with facts and that is what a lot of people brought into this discussion. You have singular point of view. The idea is that you open up to others, as Dan Patrick apparently has.

wilder, if you cross the boarder without the proper visa it is a civil offense, not criminal. You know, it's sort of like what many people at Enron did. I hope you and your neighbor are friendly enough to know what the other is doing. Taking the micro and expanding it to the macro isn't very useful.

Bulldog2_0 said...

And your "facts" are??? You've got none and your point of view is just as singular. The only difference is that I can hold my own with the likes of you without attacking you. You can't.

And the fact about the fence is that our congress passed a low to build it... and then scrapped it. That's just more of the same old lying.

Bulldog2_0 said...

Please note that Mich didn't attack ANY of my points... he just attacked ME. When you can't debate, you debase.

Wilder said...

Taking the micro and expanding it to the macro isn't very useful.

Perhaps you can understand this Michilines. It is a law and to break the law is not in our best interest. The penalty for breaking that law is deportation. I don't think you ever heard me advocate that. I am 100% for Legal immigration and the chance for people to take advantage of what this country has to offer. It is a slap in the face, to all the people waiting in line to come here legally, for others to pass go and collect 200 because they don't feel like they should go the legal route. So next time you want to lecture anyone, tell us your master plan!! And make sure it doesn't cost me the rest of my savings.

michilines said...

bulldog, if you listened and/or watched the program, or have read anything, you know that your extreme points are off the mark. Even Dan Patrick thinks we can get to a solution. You inability to comprimise is an indication that you must fear the unknown and you must really hate the people who come here.

They don't want to hurt you. Truly they don't. If you chose to live in fear, then how can anyone help you?

Walls don't work, bulldog. They never have. Why do you think the Berlin Wall came down or that the Wall of China is a tourist destination? Walls don't work, except to end in deaths.

Many more people come to our country illegally through airports and seaports. Your focus on one source is telling.

michilines said...

wilder, clearly you didn't listen to anyone on the other side of this debate from you nor did you read what Kuff wrote. Read the context before you start telling me what I know or don't.

Bulldog2_0 said...

I did watch the whole program... every second of it. I alkso see the slight discrepancies with Kuff's interpretation of it. His added color commentary isn't what happened verbatim.

Yes, I know that people come here through other ports of entry but THEY tend to lay low and not bring attention to themselves like Mexicans do. That's why the southern border is so much a focal point... because of Mexicans.

I know that walls don't always work either but fences do help retard the flow somewhat. While I always contended that the fence was a possible waste of money, I also know that the money WILL be wasted on something else anyway so why not waste it mon something that MIGHT actually do some good? Fences must be good because Mexico uses one on their southern border... and we helped them build it. A fence also cut down on the deaths of Israeli citizewns as well. So, your assertion that they NEVER work is empty rhetoric... nothing more.

Put your money where your mouth is... allow a family of two of illegals to live with YOU in YOUR house.

My solution? The one that's working in Oklhoma and Arizona seem just fine to me. Just enforce our current laws.

Hey, how much is your spouse or child worth... moneywise? Are they worth a cheap breakfast taco? They are if you propose that we open the borders.

I notice that you STILL don't attack my points... just me.

michilines said...

bulldog, I apologize for attacking you personally. It was not my intention and I am sorry that I hurt your feelings.

I work with immigrants, both legal and illegal. They do not want ot hurt you. They have only come here to work, not make anything off the system.

One point that was made tonight was important. When people are hurt or killed while working for a company illegally, they do not get the help that they need. When people work here illegally, they do not have the same safegards that American workers do.

That is a benefit for people like Perry Homes and others to use the illeagal workers and avoid paying for the medical care those workers may need.

bulldog, I know you. It's fun to debate you in this way. Refreshing almost.

Bulldog2_0 said...

Hurt my feelings? Not hardly. Just pointing out that you're in the corner trying to fight your way out. But, it seems that my chastising HAS brought you back somewhat.

Sure... illegals don't want to hurt anyone. Riiight. That doesn't really do much to soothe the families of the thousands who lost their lives to them each year. Tell that to the family of Tina Davila. Did you even look at the links I provided?

I certainly agree with you about the business owners cutting corners when they use illegals. That's TERRIBLE and should be STOPPED IMMEDIATELY! These unscrupulous employers SHOULD be in jail now. I have said many times that if there's a cave-in somewhere in Houston, the person(s) dead in the bottom of the dirt will have a Hispanic surname and will likely be an illegal. Why is that? Aren't ALL Hispanics "hard-working"? Nope. Illegals are hard workers because they MUST be. If their status were to change, they wouldn't be as industrious... or exploitable.

This is where the lie was told in the debate. The claim was that illegals didn't access the medical care system. Well, if they have to go to the hospital when they have an industrial accident, that alone blows THAT lie out of the water. But, as one who has to wait and wait and wait in an emergency room while the march of illegals went by, I can safely say that it was a HUGE lie.

Anyway, I gotta git to bed. Y'all have fun now, ya heah?

michilines said...

Sleep well sweet bulldog. I understand how hardheaded dogs can be.

I am truly sorry I hurt your feelings. (You said I attacked you -- I'm sorry, pobrecito.)

I am well aware of the propaganda that Rep. King has thrown out in the past few years and that Rep. Tancredo pulled out against the Pope, so, yeah, I got your number.

Night night, sleep tight and don't let the illegals bight :)

LonewackoDotCom said...

Someone should have called Gordon Quan on his false statement. For instance, two members of Hezb. were caught inside the U.S. months after coming over the border illegally. There have also been other cases involving those with links to terrorist organizations.

And, just because other terrorists haven't been caught doesn't mean that they haven't already crossed the border.

LonewackoDotCom said...

Forget the last link, try this (PDF file).

Wilder said...

Yes Michilines, I did listen and I too work around illegals and others everyday and some of the people on this show have no idea what they are talking about. You being one of them.

ejcash said...

All of the "statistics" cited are difficult if not impossible to verify with any more accuracy than that with which they were collected. But one item in this discussion is an indisputable truth and that is that we - Americans from both sides of the political spectrum and our elected officials - must sit down and find workable, effective and affordable solutions. Those solutions are not impossible to deduce and we already have at least two examples of solutions that are both affordable and effective.

AZ passed legislation that went into effect in January that implemented harsh penalties for knowingly hiring illegal aliens including a business losing its license for a second offense. OK passed similar legislation earlier this year as well and while its passing was widely criticized at the time, OK's unemployment rate *dropped* in March after the law passed while the rest of the country was worrying about national unemployment increasing to over 5%.

The latter fact rather blunts the argument that we need these illegal immigrants to do the menial jobs "Americans won't do." And we haven't even begun to discuss regaining tax revenues that previously went to assistance programs for these "undocumented workers." Because the simple fact is that while not all illegals are here solely to plunder our entitlement programs, many of them do collect taxpayer-funded assistance and at a far greater cost to taxpayers than their contributions. It seems contradictory to say on the one hand that illegals fill these low paying menial positions while on the other hand positing that they contribute their fair share. Even the lowest wage earning Americans have a negative tax burden. How can one then say illegals who, if they aren't paid under the table in the first place, that they're contributing more than they consume??

Obviously there are arguments to make on both sides of this issue - valid arguments that can be supported from either perspective with those highly suspect "statistics" mentioned before. The facts are that it DOES cost more to educate someone who doesn't speak the language; that any monies spent assisting illegal aliens is money NOT spent assisting legal American citizens who are just as much in need. You simply don't donate thousands to the Red Cross when you can't afford to feed, clothe and house your own family.

Border security needs to be strengthened perhaps but "the fence" is not the answer. Like OK and AZ, we need to remove the motivation for these aliens to enter the US illegally. The primary, and quite simple, solutions are stiff ENFORCED penalties for any business or employer that hires illegal workers and rigorous proof of legal citizenship for *nyone* prior to receiving state or federal assistance of any kind.

Once those measures are implemented we should use the resulting saved money and manpower to redefine immigration policies and procedures to facilitate the path to legal citizenship to fill any real (or imagined) need to bring unskilled workers into the country to fill jobs "Americans won't do" The obvious side benefit will then be the elimination of abuse of these same workers by virtue of being illegally in the country. Both the hunamists and the fiscal conservatives are served to the benefit of all concerned.

Finally, I don't believe there were any more useless and inapplicable statements made than "We are a nation of immigrants..." and "Immigrants come from all nations and continents..." used to somehow attempt to bolster the argument for illegal immigration and/or amnesty. We are a nation of *legal* immigrants and *legal* immigrants come from all nations and continents. Legal immigration is not the issue - illegal immigration is the issue, no matter where they come from.

Ernie Cash
Victoria TX

P Finn said...

Get rid of the border fence - this is the new millenium, not Nazi Germany for goodness sake. What about the Houston TV reporter who crossed the Mex border complete unapproached. After starting with the black market immigration process in Iran, he made it all the way through with just a few hundred dollars all the way across the southern US/MEX border without so much as a question from anyone -- keep in mind he is Hispanic and could have fit close enough with a visual profile. (sorry guy - we love ya) This is the age of negotiation and intellectual property. We need to recognize terrorists are greatly injured human beings who are reacting to their environment - starving poor and violent. Negotations need to recognize this impact generates a huge human response emotion "act out" to get attention, or in thie case, revenge to ease the pain. Societal population pain is the key and needs to be responded to in a mature results oriented fashion. Discussions need to address this key core issue and proposals need to respect this aspect. Fences are a huge step backward. My thought is follow the contractors relationships and see who they know... This project got railroaded through. Something is not right here. Aren't we better than this?